Twelve Ordinary Men: Lesson 5

Playlist
Adult Bible Study
Series
Twelve Ordinary Men

Topics: John, Faith, James, Moses, Grace, Matthew, 1 Corinthians, Isaiah

Overview

Meeting "the Other Guys": Philip and Nathaniel

After spending considerable time with the inner four—Peter, Andrew, James, and John—we turn to the apostles whose names are familiar but whose stories are less often told. Jesus chose twelve men deliberately, and each was called for a specific purpose in the building of His church. The same is true of every member of Christ's body today. As Paul reminds us, "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of services, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who activates all of them in everyone" 1 Corinthians 12:4-6. Every disciple matters; every disciple has purpose.

Philip: the Faithful Pragmatist

Philip is often characterized as the fact-and-figures man among the Twelve—practical, orderly, occasionally stuck in the visible facts when faith called for more. We see this when Jesus tests him before the feeding of the five thousand: Philip answers that "six months' wages would not buy enough bread for each of them to get a little" John 6:5-7. His arithmetic was right; his faith was momentarily clouded by the raw facts. Yet pragmatism is not a flaw to be despised. The church needs people who count the cost, ask the hard questions, and bring order to vision. God is a God of order, and pragmatists serve the body well. Jesus' question was not a rebuke but an invitation for Philip to grow.

Philip's strengths shine elsewhere. When Jesus called him, he immediately went and found Nathanael, saying, "We have found him about whom Moses in the law and also the prophets wrote" John 1:43-45. Like Andrew, Philip leveraged the relationships he already had. This is a model for us: the unchurched friends, neighbors, and family members already in our lives are fertile soil for the gospel. Later, when Greeks approached him saying, "Sir, we wish to see Jesus" John 12:20-22, Philip—uncertain because Jesus had earlier directed the Twelve to Israel—conferred with Andrew, and together they brought the Greeks to Christ. When we feel stuck between a rock and a hard place in our witness, we too need trusted brothers and sisters to think it through with us. Finally, in the upper room, Philip says, "Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied" John 14:8-10. Jesus answers with patience: "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father." Christ Himself is how God has chosen to be known.

Nathanael: A True Israelite, Without Deceit

Philip brought Nathanael to Jesus, but Nathanael came skeptical: "Can anything good come out of Nazareth?" John 1:46-49. His prejudice was real, yet Jesus saw past it—indeed, saw past the fig tree itself—into Nathanael's heart, and declared, "Here is truly an Israelite in whom there is no deceit." Where Jesus condemned hypocrisy in the religious establishment, He commended Nathanael for an honest, unhypocritical heart. Stunned that Jesus knew him so deeply, Nathanael confessed, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!"

Nathanael's meditation under the fig tree was pleasing to the Lord, calling to mind the prayer, "Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, O Lord, my rock and my redeemer" Psalm 19:14. Tradition holds that Nathanael carried the gospel as far as Persia, India, and Armenia, where he was martyred.

Pastoral Takeaways

These men were faithful, flawed, and used powerfully by God. Their weaknesses became the very places where Christ matured them. Take heart: you are not perfect, and you do not have to be. God calls pragmatists and visionaries, the cautious and the bold, the skeptical and the eager. He calls us to introduce the people already in our lives to Jesus, to lean on brothers and sisters when we feel stuck, and to trust that He is at work transforming us into the disciples He has purposed us to be.

Transcript

And we'll begin with prayer. 2s

Lord, we thank you so much. 5s

We thank you for calling the 12 men that you called. 6s

We thank you for showing us their flaws and their weaknesses, 10s

as well as their strengths and how you have worked in their lives. 15s

Lord, we thank you that though we are flawed, though we are weak, 20s

we know that you have gifted us and that you have called each of us 25s

into your body to be a part of your church and to help to grow your kingdom 30s

that we would all be eternally with you, the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. 39s

Lord, we ask that you would guide this study this morning 45s

and that you would open our minds and our hearts 48s

to where you have called us and how you have called us 53s

to be your people and to share your good news. 57s

Lord, we lift all of this to you in the name of Jesus Christ. 61s

Amen. Okay, so we've got the first four apostles 64s

which we spent a bit of time on. 68s

Peter, Andrew, James, and John, there's two sets of brothers. 71s

Peter and Andrew were brothers, James and John were brothers. 77s

They were all fishermen in, and I'm not going to stay on the map, 79s

but they were all fishermen in Capernum from Bethesda. 84s

And what we found with each of them is that though they were brothers, 92s

they were very, very different and though they were very, very different, 97s

they were still very, very similar. 101s

So, which, I mean we can say that for all of our families. 103s

And they were all part of the inner circle, of the inner circle. 108s

So Jesus chose these twelve men to travel with him, to do ministry with him, 113s

to live life with him. And these would be the twelve men 120s

whom he gave that initial commission to go and make disciples of all nations. 123s

And these are the twelve men. And within those twelve men, 131s

we've got this inner circle of four, especially the inner circle of Peter, James, and John, 135s

who were there at very key moments in Christ's ministry. 142s

They were there for the transfiguration. 145s

They were there when he raised Gyrus's daughter. They were there. 148s

They were the ones to accompany him to the Garden of Gethsemane when he was praying 152s

and they fell asleep. 157s

We know that Peter was very impulsive, very passionate, very impulsive, 159s

didn't do a lot of think before you leap. He just went with it. 165s

He was very passionate about Christ. He was very passionate about the faith after the ascension. 170s

And we know that he is Peter because his confession of who Jesus Christ was, 179s

that Jesus was indeed the Messiah. That is the rock of which the church is built, 184s

not on Peter, but on his confession. 192s

Andrew, we know, was more of a background player. 197s

He was very personable. He was very intent on that personal introduction, 202s

that personal introducing to Jesus. 209s

So we know that he was a very faithful man and a very personal evangelizer. 214s

James and John nicknamed the sons of Thunder because they had fiery personalities. 222s

And we know that John was the apostle who was not crucified. 230s

He was not martyred. He was not martyred. He was the only apostle not to be martyred. 237s

And someone very interestingly in this class pointed out last week that James was the first apostle to be martyred. 245s

And his brother, John, was the one who was not. 257s

So they are book ending these apostles, which is fascinating. 261s

And I don't really have anything more to say about that right now because I haven't done a lot of processing over that. 266s

But I thought it was really interesting and I thought we should take note of that because it is very interesting. 272s

So what we need to do now is go through these ones. 282s

And we will get through them all. It's so easy to focus on these four. 289s

Because we know a lot about these four. We see them in the gospels. 295s

We see their ministries played out in scripture or at least Peter and John. 301s

We definitely see their ministries played out in scripture. 308s

So we know more about them. And they are so key in the spread of the church. 312s

But what we realize as we continue studying the apostles, Jesus called 12th for a reason. 319s

And each one had a specific reason for being called and a specific purpose within the spread and the growth of the church. 328s

And I think it's really important that we remember this because each one of us, as a called member of the body of Christ, 339s

is called for specific purpose with specific gifts and skills and ability to grow and be transformed. 349s

And we are all a member of the body, all working by the Holy Spirit and by God's grace to spread and grow his church. 359s

Every single disciple, every single member of the church, the member of Christ's Holy Body, matters and has purpose. 372s

In 1 Corinthians, Saint Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote, 383s

Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same spirit. 389s

And there are varieties of services, but the same Lord. And there are varieties of activities. 394s

But it is the same God who activates all of them in everyone. 399s

So each of these men had gifts, skills, we saw last week, we talked about how God used John's weaknesses and really molded him and transformed him and matured him so that they would be used to grow his kingdom to grow his church here on earth. 404s

So now we are going to look at what I like to call the other guys. The other guys, beginning with Philip. 428s

Philip is a Greek name, which is really interesting. We know because all of these men were Jewish that he would have had a Hebrew name, but we are not given it in Scripture. 434s

And Philip means lover of horses. 448s

Just kind of an interesting side note. We don't read of him writing horses, we don't read of him. 452s

Lasting, you know, it just means that. Now what's interesting is that John MacArthur, which the book of this study is based out of his book on these men, 461s

John MacArthur says he argues that Philip is not the same Philip from Acts who works with or who preaches to the eunuch, but that it was the Deacon Philip. 475s

Now I think an argument could be made that it is the Apostle. I have not found anything that leads us to absolutely rule that out. Scripture is not clear exactly, but I think an argument could be made that it is the Apostle because he was preaching. 494s

That is what he was in the course of doing. He was preaching Christ when he is brought to the eunuch. And so, and what does he do there, but he explains the Scriptures. 516s

He explains the prophet Isaiah to the eunuch. And so he is doing exactly what he was called to do by Christ. 530s

So I don't want to discount that that could be Philip that we're talking about today. He is often paired with Nathaniel. Nathaniel is also known as Bartholomew. 540s

He appears by name in the gospel of John. I think it's interesting. John MacArthur pieced together this persona of Philip out of the gospel of John. And he realizes that Philip is more of a processed person. 557s

And I think he is right. He says that he is a fact and figure guy, a by the book practical-minded type of individual. He was a corporate killjoy. I don't know about that one. 575s

Pesimistic, narrowly focused, sometimes missing the big picture, obsessed with finding reasons something can't be done rather than finding ways to do them. 587s

He was predisposed to be a pragmatist and a cynic and sometimes a defeatist rather than a visionary. Now I don't know that that is necessarily fair because being a pragmatist does not mean that you have to be a cynic or that you have to be a pessimist. 598s

And I may be saying that as an optimist, but I don't think that that is necessarily fair. So let's turn to the gospel of John. 616s

We're going to look at the miracle that we've looked at before with the feeding of the 5,000 gospel of John. 629s

Chapter six. 636s

Oh, there we are. Okay. So we're starting in, we're going to start in verse two or with verse two. So gospel of John, chapter six, verse two. 645s

A large crowd kept following him because they saw the signs that he was doing for the sick. Jesus went up the mountain and sat down there with his disciples. 657s

Now the Passover, the festival of the Jews was near. When he looked up and saw a large crowd coming toward him, Jesus said to Philip, where are we to buy bread for these people to eat? 668s

He said this to test him for he himself knew what he was going to do. Philip answered him six months wages would not buy enough bread for each of them to get a little. 679s

And that's when Andrew comes up with that, that young boy. Now Jesus singles him out. And it says why? 696s

It says he singled him out to test him. Now I want to take just a step back for a second and look at Philip and you know we do want to come to the table always with the best mindset possible of our brother or sister. 706s

So Philip, he is a pragmatic person. We need pragmatic people in the church. Without pragmatic people in the church, without people to look at facts and figures, it's going to be a mess. 726s

Life bills won't get paid. Ministries won't happen. They won't develop. Big ideas are fantastic. We love big ideas. We need big ideas. But we also have to have the people to say how much is this going to cost? How many people do we need? How is this going to work? 748s

We have to have that. Remember God is a God of order. He is a God of order. And without order, we have chaos. We have maybe a really fun birthday party. But man, we need to know when it's time to cut the cake and send everyone home. 773s

So we need the pragmatist. We need the facts and figure person. The person who will tally, who will make sure that we're on point. And I don't think that that's necessarily pessimistic. I don't think that Philip here is necessarily saying this will never happen. 800s

And he's saying we don't have the ability to feed all these people. It is not logistically possible. But Jesus knew what he was going to do. And he tested Philip because Philip not that he was bad in being pragmatic about it. 822s

But in his fear, he sees all these people. He cannot figure out how the logistics will work. And he's thinking in materialistic means instead of faithfully embracing Lord, I don't know how this is going to happen, but you're you. 847s

And I have seen amazing things and I know you're going to take care of this. He needed to be reminded of the faithfulness to which he has been called. He needed to be reminded that Jesus was there, that Jesus was with him and that nothing is impossible with God. 870s

So what do we do? What do we do? Philip didn't need to give Jesus a plan. But he also didn't need to fear at the impossible situation that was in front of him. 898s

It was the reality of the raw facts that had clouded. Philip's faith. Not that Philip was not a faith-filled man, not that he was not a faithful disciple of Christ even in that moment. 915s

But Christ asked him specifically to test him. And through that, Jesus was taking that opportunity to mold and grow and mature Philip in his own faith. 931s

I don't think it was an admonition, he wasn't admonishing, we'll just say like that. He wasn't admonishing Philip necessarily. But I think he was allowing Philip to grow and mature in his own faithfulness of Christ and of who Christ was and what Christ could do. 950s

So I really want to lift up Philip in this because it's easy to point a finger at him and say, oh my gosh, he did not have faith at all. 971s

I can't believe Philip, he's pessimistic in this situation or too pragmatic in this situation. And again, we go back to we need the pragmatic. We need not the pessimist, but I don't think Philip was a pessimist. We need the pragmatic, we need the order, we need to know how things are going to go. 992s

We also see this in Philip, actually I'm going to back up a little bit, we're going to look at where he was called, I'm sorry about that. So if we go back to John 1, John 1, and we're going to look at Philip's call. 1015s

So John 1 verse 43, so John had just called, he had just called Peter. And so then it says, the next day Jesus decided to go to Galilee. He found Philip and said to him, follow me. 1040s

Now Philip was run Bethseda, the city of Andrew and Peter. So again, we see the faithfulness of Philip here. Jesus says, follow me and Philip does. Philip follows. And what is the first thing Philip does? 1059s

Philip found a manual and said to him, we have found him about whom Moses in the law and also the prophets wrote Jesus, son of Joseph from Nazareth. 1078s

He is a very faithful disciple. He is faithful in his answer to Christ's call. He is the first, he is one that Jesus sought out. He knew that Jesus was the one to answer the Old Testament. So we know that he was a faithful Jew as well. 1092s

And we see that he immediately turns to find his friend. He seeks out his friend. And we want to take another aside here. Just as Andrew, first thing he would do was introduce people to Jesus. He wanted to make sure that people knew Jesus. 1115s

So as I said, Philip is very similar in that. I found the Messiah. I need to find my buddy and tell him. And this is a great lesson for us. This is a great example for us as Christ disciples that friendship, the relationships that we have already established this side of heaven with those who are unchurched or decurched. 1132s

That is fertile soil for introducing people to Jesus. I was having a conversation with a pastor in Illinois just this week. And he said he was at a barbecue. And one of his buddies came up and said, I think we need to have an evangelism, an evangelistic outreach event. We need to have some sort of event for evangelism. 1160s

And this pastor said, okay. So have you evangelized every single neighbor on your street? The guy said, oh no. And this pastor said, okay, I tell you what, when you evangelize every single person on your street, then we'll hold an evangelism event. 1187s

And it was getting at the heart of this friendship resource, this friendship, these established relationships that God has already put in our lives, that God has already blessed us with. 1212s

We can bless the relationship further. We can bless that person by introducing him or her to Jesus. 1230s

And this Philip wasn't fact facting, figuring he wasn't pragmatic about it. He knew. Jesus says, follow me. Philip says, okay, I'm following. Let me go tell my buddy. We're going to bring him along too. 1243s

Because he knew that Jesus was the Messiah. And he acted in faith. So now let's go to John 12. And we're going to see another instance where we have Philip. 1262s

We've got two more places here. John 12 versus 20 and 21. And this, we already saw this story with when we were talking about Andrew. 1279s

But some Greeks had come, well, let's just start at 20. Now among those who went up to worship at the festival were some Greeks. They came to Philip who was from Bethesda and Galilee and said to him, sir, we wish to see Jesus. 1296s

And it's kind of interesting why these Greeks would have sought out Philip. They would have gone to him for a reason. It could have been that he had a Greek name. And so they were comfortable with going to him. 1313s

But they sought out Philip for whatever reason. And Philip was Philip. And he said, okay, hold on a second. And he went and found Andrew. 1329s

Part of this may come back to his pragmatic sort of personality, his thinking through the order of things. Because when Jesus first sent the 12 out in Matthew chapter 10, it says these 12 Jesus sent out with the following instructions. 1344s

And so Jesus, go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Jesus had already given them kind of a rule of their evangelism at that point in their ministry to go to the house of Israel. 1364s

Don't go to the Gentiles, the Greeks. Don't go to the Samaritans, but focus your attention on the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Focus on the Jewish people. So here, Philip's got these Greeks coming to him. And he says, hold on. I don't know what to do. 1386s

I mean, he knows, he knows he needs to introduce them to Jesus, but Jesus previously had said, don't go to the Greeks. Don't go to the Gentiles. Don't go to the Samaritans. So he's kind of in this quandary of being a faithful disciple or disciple, being a follower of Jesus, being pragmatic, knowing there's already been a sort of rule laid out. What do I do? 1407s

What do I do? We don't want to keep anyone from Jesus, but am I supposed to introduce him? I don't know. Let's go find Andrew. And Andrew has an answer for him, and they go together and they introduce the Greeks to Jesus. 1435s

He was in a stuck place. He was in a stuck place. And there's an appreciation that we can have for that. We've all been in those situations where we feel like we're between a rock and a hard place. 1452s

He didn't want to not let these people meet Jesus, but he didn't know how he should go about making that happen, or if he should go about making that happen. 1470s

And so he conferred with a trusted friend, a trusted man within this brotherhood of apostles. We all have people around us. 1483s

In this room, write this second that when we're stuck between a rock and a hard place, I don't know about this. I want this person to meet Jesus. I'm pretty sure they should meet Jesus because everyone should meet Jesus, but I'm not quite sure how, or what the appropriate way, or what the best means are going to be by doing this or how to do this. 1498s

Because we all have brothers and sisters to chat it over with. In everyone, his witness workshop. One of the things we do is we take time during three of the sessions to work with a partner and to kind of noodle through some of those, how do I talk to this person in my life? 1524s

What are good ways of reaching out? What are good questions to ask this person? In the everyday missionary, I know a class that Steve Burke teaches, I know that there is a point where every week the people, the participants gather together and talk about how they did mission in that time in between meeting together. 1551s

They are, and they noodle it out together, and they get advice, and they work it through. Because, I know I've told you this before, and I'm so sorry to tell you again, you're not perfect. 1575s

You have weaknesses. I do too. For sure. For sure. But we need our brothers and sisters to noodle these things out with. 1589s

We need our brothers and sisters to support us. And to be Andrew for us. Or when a Philip comes to us and says, I don't know, we can be the Andrew. 1601s

But the whole point of both Andrew and Philip in this is that they were introducing people to Jesus. And that is what it boils down to as disciples, as missionaries, which we know we are all called missionaries. 1618s

Okay, last place we're going to look at Philip is in John 14. And this is where Jesus had washed the apostles' feet. He had given them the new commandment. He tells that Peter is going to deny him. And he's saying, I'm going to go and prepare a place for you. 1636s

And he says in verse 7, Jesus says, if you know me, you will know my father. You will know my father also. From now on, you do know him and have seen him. And Philip said to him, Lord, show us the father and we will be satisfied. 1662s

Jesus said to him, have I been with you all this time, Philip? And you still do not know me, whoever has seen me has seen the father. How can you say, show us the father? Do not believe that I am in the father and the father is in me. 1683s

The words that I say to you, I do not speak on my own, but the father who dwells in me does his works. 1702s

Show us the father and we'll be satisfied. The entire time Jesus was with them. He was showing them the father because he is God in the flesh. 1712s

He is how God chooses to reveal himself. He is God how we can know him. 1727s

Show us the father and we'll be satisfied. I have been here the entire time. The very fact that Philip is saying, show us the father and we'll be satisfied shows that they are not satisfied. 1739s

They have seen the father through the sun and they are still not satisfied. And Jesus says, believe. 1754s

The father is in me. I am in the father. Believe. 1773s

I love Philip. The more I read about these gentlemen, the more I just think, oh, this one is my favorite apostle. 1782s

I love this one. But it is in their weaknesses, in their flaws, that we see such amazing growth and potential and transformation in maturity of faith. 1789s

The fact that God is doing miraculous things through these men and in their lives. 1810s

We are going to, oh, my goodness. We are going to talk about Bartholomew or Nathaniel now. 1820s

We are going to get to two today. Let's go back to John, the first chapter. We have just talked about Philip. Go home and thank a pragmatist in your life, by the way. 1825s

I always thought she was a killjoy, but she is not. She just knows there needs to be an order. Also thank your mothers. 1843s

So Philip introduced Bartholomew or introduced Nathaniel to Jesus. He is only mentioned in the synoptic gospels, that is Matthew, Mark, and Luke, when he is listed as an apostle. 1852s

In John, he is listed twice by name, first in John 1, when Philip introduces him to Jesus, and then in John 21, when he is named as one who was fishing with Peter. 1870s

Let's look at John, the first chapter, verse 46. So Philip just met Jesus, he says, follow me, Philip goes, Philip finds Nathaniel and said to him, we have found him about whom Moses in the law and also the prophets were wrote. 1886s

Jesus, son of Joseph, from Nazareth. Nathaniel said to him, can anything good come out of Nazareth? Philip said to him, come and see. When Jesus saw Nathaniel coming toward him, he said of him, here is truly an Israelite in whom there is no deceit. Nathaniel asked him, where did you get to know me? 1907s

Jesus answered, I saw you under the fig tree before Philip called you. Nathaniel replied, rabbi, you are the son of God, you are the king of Israel. Jesus answered, do you believe because I told you that I saw you under the fig tree, you will see greater things than these. 1929s

When we first meet Nathaniel, he comes off as, well not even kind of, just prejudiced. Nothing is going to come good out of Nazareth. He is talking down about Nazareth. 1950s

Now, Nazareth was a very rough town. It was uneducated, uncultured, and so Nathaniel felt he had ground to stand on that nothing good could come out of this Nazareth. 1967s

That again goes to show how God uses the weak, the lowly, the looked down upon to really shine his glory. It confuses the wisdom of the age. 1982s

We have that in first Corinthians where Paul writes about that. So God is using the unexpected. Jesus speaks of Nathaniel. He says, I saw you, hold on a second here, he says, here is truly an Israelite in whom there is no deceit. 2003s

So Nathaniel is saying, nothing good is kind of come out of Nazareth. And Jesus is speaking exactly of who Nathaniel is. And not just who he is as a human being, but who he is in his heart of hearts. 2027s

And it's like the master who says to the slave with the talents, well done, good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of your Lord. He's speaking very highly of Nathaniel to Nathaniel. 2044s

Even though Nathaniel has just expressed extreme prejudice, Jesus is speaking very highly of Nathaniel. 2062s

Nathaniel, what he's saying here is that Nathaniel by being a true Israelite, he is not a hypocrite. So Jesus condemns the establishment of Judaism for its hypocrisy. 2072s

And here he's saying, here is a true Israelite. In him there is no deceit. His heart is pure. His heart is clean, is good. And it's kind of interesting to think about that juxtaposition of the prejudice that Nathaniel shows. 2090s

And yet Jesus calls him out to be a true Israelite, to be one of pure heart. He could not see Nathaniel. There was a fig tree there. And this is why Nathaniel is shocked when Jesus says, I saw you by the fig tree because Nathaniel would not have been seen through the fig tree. 2113s

And yet Jesus not only saw Nathaniel there, he didn't just see his person, he saw into his heart. 2138s

That is where Nathaniel is shocked and knows he is rabbi, he is the teacher, that he is good because he knows Nathaniel. 2150s

And it made me think of Psalm 1914, this Psalm has come up three times this week, which is crazy. But it came up again, it made me think of this where in Psalm 19 we read, let the words on my lips and the meditation of my heart be pleasing to you, O Lord, my rock and my redeemer. 2166s

And the meditation on Nathaniel's heart under the fig tree was pleasing to the Lord. And Jesus commends him for it. 2186s

We just have no time for these men, I am so sorry. 2201s

Okay, so we don't know much more about Nathaniel. We know that he and Philip are in ministry or good friends, they go together. 2205s

We don't know church tradition that is reliable tells us that after the ascension Nathaniel went to Persia and India and probably as far as Armenia, his death, his martyrdom, there are two stories about it. 2218s

So one tradition says that he was tied up in a sack and cast into the sea where he would have drowned. And another tradition says that he was crucified. 2243s

Because they are both prevalent in the church history or church tradition, we can't say which exactly happened to him, but we do know that there was one who was not martyred. 2257s

So we know that Nathaniel was martyred. We just, we don't know which it was. Both sound awful. 2273s

Okay, so that's two of the other guys. We just have a few more left. But as we go on, we know less and less from scripture, which is, I don't want to say which is, that's up less because it's not. 2282s

It's good to know about these men. But for our purposes, we know less and less so there's less to talk about. 2297s

And I really do want to give Judas some space. He needs his own, his own time. 2304s